Editorial Note: I’ve continued to update this page as I’ve encountered new information. Major modifications are noted. Minor modifications are not.
GZ = George Zimmerman TM = Trayvon Martin
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Did GZ ignore the dispatcher’s instructions? Some claim the 911 dispatcher ordered GZ not to follow TM. But that’s not true. During GZ’s 911 call, the dispatcher asked him if he was following TM. When GZ said he was the dispatcher replied, “We don’t need you to do that.” According to Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, “The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow.” Regardless, the evidence suggests GZ took the dispatcher’s suggestion. See my post, “What if Zimmerman didn’t ignore 911?“
How did their exchange begin? Some claim GZ is wrong because he approached TM. But there is no evidence GZ approached TM or behaved inappropriately. A lawyer for Martin’s family, Attorney Benjamin Crump, told ABC News that TM’s girlfriend overheard the start of their exchange. According to Crump, the girlfriend heard TM ask, “What are you following me for?” To which GZ responds, “What are you doing around here?” But that’s all she claims to have heard of the exchange.
Who was screaming? Some claim that TM was screaming. But according to the Orlando Sentinel, TM’s own father said it wasn’t his son’s voice. He later claimed it was after talking to his lawyers. But the initial report by the officer at the scene quotes GZ as saying, “I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me.” Joe Oliver, a friend of GZ’s, told ABCNews in an interview that the voice “sounded like George.” Edited 3/27/2012.
Who does GZ say was attacked and screaming? Edited 3/27/2012.
According to the Orlando Sentinel:
Zimmerman told [police] he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.
Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.
Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.
Zimmerman began yelling for help.
Who do witnesses say was attacked and screaming?
From MyFoxOrlando:
“The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
“And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”
Are all the witnesses in agreement? One of the witnesses has given an interview claiming there was no struggle and it wasn’t self defense. But during the 911 call she said, “The guy on top has a white T-shirt.” Since GZ was wearing a red sweater this suggests she knows full well there was a struggle and that TM was on top of GZ. According to an interview Sanford Police Sgt. David Morgenstern gave to Fox35 News,”There were some inconsistencies with her statement and what was aired on the news. The information or sworn statements she provided regarding the actions of Zimmerman were consistent with the information Zimmerman provided to us.”
Do injuries support an attack on GZ? The attorney for GZ, Craig Sonners, says “George Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, and had an injury to the back of his head (…).” According to the Washington Post, Sonner’s account of Zimmerman’s injuries is consistent with the Sanford Police Department report, written by the officer at the crime scene who handcuffed Zimmerman. “I could observe his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground,” the officer wrote. “Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head.”
Edited 3/27/2012.
How many shots were fired? Some claim there were two shots fired. But only one shot is heard on the 911 tapes. And callers on the 911 tapes said they only heard one shot. The Boston Herald reported, “Police found a single shell casing at the scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman’s handgun, a Kel Tec 9 mm, its magazine was full, according to a source close to the investigation. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said.”
Are the police hiding something? Some claim the Sanford police are engaged in a cover-up. But according to the Orlando Sentinel , “Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. (…) invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation.” “It’s an open book,” Lee said. “If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they’re welcome to it.”
Why was no one arrested? According to Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, GZ was not arrested because his claims of self defense were “supported by physical evidence and testimony.” If the officers had arrested him without probable cause “both the officer and the City may be held liable.” Regardless, it was the decision of the state’s attorney and not the Sanford police department. Added 3/27/2012.
According to ABC News:
The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.
But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney’s office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn’t enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.
What does Florida law say about self-defense? Other state laws might require GZ to prove he acted in self-defense. But according to an article in Mother Jones, Florida courts say the law “does not require defendant to prove self-defense (…). The defendant’s only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable.”
Are there political considerations? The negative publicity from this case could hurt their chances for re-election. So elected officials are eager to pass the buck to someone else. Some politicians are calling for multiple investigations. But this smacks of political CYA. Circuit court judges are elected so it will probably go to trial. But jurors aren’t elected so when they’re presented with the evidence GZ will probably be acquitted.
Are the activists being objective? Some of the prejudicial and emotionally charged language being used by radicals are that GZ was a “vigilante” and a “child murderer”. But the law defines a “child” as someone 14 years or younger. And GZ has yet to be convicted of any crime, let alone murder. GZ will probably sue for slander and defamation after he’s cleared.
Do events support a claim of self defense? The essential elements of self defense are as follows. TM was an athletic football player who posed a credible threat. GZ’s injuries support his claim that TM attacked him from behind. Witnesses saw TM on top of GZ beating him while he screamed for help. And GZ shot TM once in the chest.
How much did TM and GZ weigh? Some claim TM weighed 140 pounds compared to GZ’s 240 or even 250 pounds. But the police report lists TM at 6’0 & 160 lbs. The same report lists GZ at 5’9 but doesn’t include his weight. It’s doubtful GZ weighs 240 pounds. Added 3/23/2012.
TM’s family has reported his height at 6’2″. And a close friend of GZ, Joe Oliver, says Zimmerman is 5’8″ and currently only weighs 170 pounds. Added 3/30/2012.
How old are the photos of TM? There is a strong suspicion old photos of TM are being distributed to portray him as younger than he was. As you can see, this is the comparison that is usually made here. And MSM cable shows like Cooper360 and Nancy Grace have been using pictures like these here, here and here. But some of TM’s pictures look several years older than those being broadcast by the MSM. Click here and here to compare more recent photos. Added 3/24/2012.
- Listen to ‘George Zimmerman call to police’ on Audioboo
- Listen to ‘911 call: “The guy’s dead out here. Holy shit…Oh my God.”’ on Audioboo
- listen to ‘911 call: Screaming and gunshots audible.’ on Audioboo
- listen to ‘911 call: “There was screaming. I just heard a gunshot!”’ on Audioboo
- listen to ‘911 call: “Why would this man just shoot him?”’ on Audioboo
Thought he was 19?
Born 2/5/95.
i’m unsure as to why you feel so strongly about defending an almost 30 year almost man who has admitted to gunning down a 17 year old. perhaps you think he has been portrayed unfairly by the media? especially since i am an attorney, i try to refrain from making judgments until i have heard all of the facts. but perhaps you are someone who advocates for the “underdog” because you feel there is something wrong with our justice system in the whole? maybe you advocated for OJ? or casey anthony?
in any regard, It is a sad sad situation all around, but those who defend the aggressor in this case so aggressively puzzle me. THERE IS NO BLACK AND WHITE HERE. Yes, TM was 6-3 but he also weighed 140 POUNDS. Please ask yourself how much you weigh (and to keep things in context how much your wife/girlfriend weighs — I weigh less than that but many of my female friends do not) and try to understand how skinny and scrawny that weight is on such a tall frame. I know from personal experience since my younger brother was about the same height/weight as a 17 year old)
Another point I wanted to raise is that the majority of facts you are quoting are straight from GZ’s testimony. The local police chief has also released only quotes or facts provided by GZ. I can’t fathom an investigation where you just outright accept the only live survivor in a murder testimony as fact. I know the police chief and his department initially adopted these statements as fact, but as I’m sure you know his own city counsel gave him a vote of no confidence this evening, in part due to his failure to act properly in this case. They are not trusted by their own police chief!
I don’t know if we as a public will ever know what ultimately happened that night, but I think there is enough conflicting testimony/evidence in this case (between GZ’s testimony/neighbor’s testimony and the 911 tapes) that a trial is necessary, and I think the lack of arrest has been the basis of anger among supporters of TM — now number over 1 million according to a signed petition. 1 million people is not “some supporters” per your reports, it is one million people (black/white and members of all political classes) and growing.
Finally, regarding the law, it is clear from the 911 tapes that GZ initially started following TM and was told now to (regardless of whether you believe the authority of a 911 operator is not important and doesn’t need to be followed). As I am sure you have seen in the news lately, even the original Florida proponents of the Stand Your Ground law (the ones who advocated passing the law in 2005) do not believe that based on the facts of this case GZ should be provided immunity by that law. I am a 5’5 woman/120 pound woman and if a 200+ pound man (regardless of how “in shape” or not he is) started following me at night, in the dark and in the rain, I would run and then if confronted I would try to fend him off with as much force as I could, just as I have been taught by my parents and by every self-defense course I have ever taken to do. Do I only have that privilege since I am a woman? In Florida, could I be justifiably shot for taking such actions?
Amie
“I try to refrain from making judgments until i have heard all of the facts”
Should those calling GZ a “child murderer” refrain from making judgements until they’ve heard all the facts, as well?
“but those who defend the aggressor in this case so aggressively puzzle me.”
You say you “refrain from making judgments until [you] have heard all of the facts” but you still call GZ the “aggressor”. You question my motives while violating your own standards. That’s not the way to establish credibility.
“Yes, TM was 6-3 but he also weighed 140 POUNDS. Please ask yourself how much you weigh and try to understand how skinny and scrawny that weight is on such a tall frame.”
And yet at least two witnesses have said TM was on top of GZ.
“the majority of facts you are quoting are straight from GZ’s testimony. The local police chief has also released only quotes or facts provided by GZ.”
That’s not true. Police released the 911 calls. Most of the evidence came from those witnesses.
“I’m sure you know his own city counsel gave him a vote of no confidence this evening”
You just used a logical fallacy known as an “appeal to authority”. Those politicians had no more access to the evidence than I do. So their vote is irrelevant.
“I don’t know if we as a public will ever know what ultimately happened that night, but I think there is enough conflicting testimony/evidence in this case (between GZ’s testimony/neighbor’s testimony and the 911 tapes) that a trial is necessary”
Witnesses have already provided a good understanding of what happened. The only conflicting evidence is from the witness who contradicted herself. Her original statement is more credible because it conforms to other witnesses’ statements.
“I think the lack of arrest has been the basis of anger among supporters of TM — now number over 1 million according to a signed petition.”
You just used another logical fallacy known as the “bandwagon fallacy”.
“Finally, regarding the law, it is clear from the 911 tapes that GZ initially started following TM and was told no[t] to”
I addressed that in my post.
“even the original Florida proponents of the Stand Your Ground law do not believe that based on the facts of this case GZ should be provided immunity by that law.”
You just used another “appeal to authority”.
“if a 200+ pound man (regardless of how “in shape” or not he is) started following me at night, in the dark and in the rain, I would run”
What you would have done is irrelevant.
He was 6-3″ and he played football constantly, meaning he was solid muscle! Bruce Lee weighed much less than that and he was also in dynamic shape and could kill a man with his bare hands too!
All we see on the media is baby pictures of Trayvon Martin, but not one of his near 18 almost legal adult 6-3″ photos? That is because he was huge and the families lawyers told the Martins to hype the situation up as if Zimmerman murdered a child instead of the true case of self defense that it was.
All we see on the media is baby pictures of Trayvon Martin, but not one of his near 18 almost legal adult 6-3″ photos
I noticed that. They took down his facebook account pretty quick. I’d liked to have seen some of those pics.
He was 6-3″ and he played football constantly, meaning he was solid muscle!
Yeah. This whole, “he was only 140 pounds” schtick is getting old. I was tall and thin when I was his age. And I took out guys a lot bigger than me a time or two. They were messing with me so I sucker punched them, got on top and just never gave them a chance. I know how it goes. But people want to make sensational comments like “He was just a child!” and “All he had was skittles and iced tea!” But GZ never saw his skittles and drivers license. All he knew was that some guy was attacking him.
pssst
this is really nikcrit —– but your blog won’t let me post under the avatar and email i’ve been doing the past two years all of a sudden? maybe it’s because i’ve been posting from wifi accounts of late.
Nik
I didn’t see anything in the queue. I had some problems on another blog a couple of days ago. I logged out. Logged back in. Reloaded the blog. And selected my gravatar before I made the comment and that fixed it.
I just checked the police report and Trayvon wasn’t 6’3″ and 140 lbs. He was 6’0 and 160 lbs. So he was shorter but heavier than originally thought. I’ve modified the original post accordingly. The report lists Zimmerman as 5’9 but doesn’t include his weight. People started out saying Zimmerman was 240 and now I’m reading where people are saying he’s 250. I don’t believe it. He’s only 5’9 and he doesn’t look that heavy.
Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report
zimmerman was a racist…..carrying a gun
no matter what happened, martin was innocent , he was there doing nothing wrong and this racist was following and intimidating him…did he ever identify who he was? for sure if he didnt, anyone would have the right to react to someone following them
no matter what martin did, in any scenario you can put together based on the evidence, this guy should be convicted of something
Scott’s comment demonstrates the mentality that prompted me to write this FAQ. He says “no matter what happened, martin was innocent”. He doesn’t care about the evidence or the circumstances. He simply claims that “zimmerman was racist” and “should be convicted of something.”
This story is very telling. George Zimmerman is a Hispanic man, adopted by Jews, who shot a black kid. No Mayflower Americans or descendants of slaveowners were involved. Yet somehow they’re at fault?
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[destructure: His adopted parents are Catholic. Other than that, I agree.]
Scott, you are a [redacted]. Other than that, you seem okay.
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[destructure: Yes, he is. But watch the language.]
Listen to Zimmerman’s 911 call again. Begin at the 2:00 minute point, where Zimmerman says Trayvon ran away. You hear Zimmerman’s truck door opening, the ding ding the truck makes when the driver’s side door is opened with the keys still in the car, and the door closing. Then the rush of wind and heavier breathing, as Zimmerman walks quickly. The dispatcher only then says, “Are you following him?”, and it goes on from there. Zimmerman stops after saying OK. The wind noise and heavier breathing stops, and he talks for two more minutes, but he never gets back in the truck. He sure doesn’t sound like a guy anxious to end the phone call, so he can go off in hot pursuit.
Trayvon had just over two minutes running time, in a dark neighborhood, before Zimmerman ended the 911 call. Despite this, there is a confrontation with Zimmerman about two minutes after he hung up with 911, that occurred very close to Zimmerman’s parked truck. How far can a high school football player run in two minutes? Zimmerman never saw Trayman after he ran off, during the next two plus minutes of his 911 call. Trayman sure didn’t go far. Perhaps he hid, and heard Zimmerman talking to the police outside of his truck. Would that make him angry? It’s not too hard to get away from a man standing in plain sight outside, talking on a cell phone. So why was Trayvon still there?
Who was stalking who?
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[destructure: Your comment is what convinced me Trayvon confronted Zimmerman rather than the other way around.]
Apologies!! I popped in from SBPDL, where the language is a bit salty. Love your site!
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[destructure: No problem. Thanks.]
Thank you for your reply, destructure. I was beginning to wonder if I’m the only other person in the world who has a car that makes that ding ding sound, when you open the driver’s door with the key still in. The press is going nuts about whether he said c**ns, and completely ignored this.
Since you were kind, I’m going to go a little farther out on a limb. I confess I don’t know squat about guns, but I think I know a lot about men, having a husband, father, brother, and son. Zimmerman was indisputably involved in a violent wrestling match. Apparently, he stashed his gun in the front waistband of his pants. I don’t believe that Trayvon would have fought him, if he ever saw the gun, so I’m assuming it was in his waistband.
No man that I can conceive of, would voluntarily enter into a violent wrestling match, with a loaded gun in his front waist band, pointed you know where. Pointed down, towards a bodily part that men are particularly fond of. Sure, it could have had a safety switch that was on, but they were rolling and tumbling on the grass in a violent fight.
You see where I am going with this. I think Zimmerman was in extreme danger from that gun going off.
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[destructure: A lot of people have their minds made up. That's why I'm focusing on evidence and witness statements only. I'll let them argue with cold, hard facts. As for his gun, this article in Washington Post says he had a holster. The KelTec PF9 is very small so he probably carried it in a pocket holster.]
I saw some of Trayvon’s facebook pictures, before they discontinued the site. In one picture, he was making gang symbols with his hands, and there was writing on the picture that said “made nigga” and some street I don’t remember gang. His physique was pretty normal for a high school football player. Not huge, but not small either. I didn’t think it was a particularly menacing picture, but then I don’t know anything about gangs.
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[destructure: I found one of those photos and added it to the post to compare with the baby-faced ones the media is broadcasting. I'd guess 2 years difference.]
Good job of keeping the information of this case together. Too bad we have to depend on a blog to do that instead of an actual news site.
Keep up the good work because no one who is supposed to be doing this kind of work is actually doing it.
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[destructure: Thanks. What the MSM was doing wasn't right and no one else was doing anything about it.]
Really? Could you show me a source that says his adoptive parents are Catholic, if you don’t mind? I can find an article saying he used to be an altar boy, but not much more than that.
I’m not trying to “start” anything, I just can’t find very much on Google or Bing about it.
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[destructure: This article from the Washington Post starts out saying the name sounds Jewish but quotes one of Zimmerman's neighbors from the 1980s and 90s describing the family as “Very Catholic . . . very religious.” This isn't about Zimmerman's background. And it would be a mistake to make an issue of it.]
Thanks!
You’re doing a good job with this FAQ. Keep it up!
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[destructure: Thanks. I'm still fiddling with it a little. But unless some important news is released it's pretty much done. It just needs to be advertised.]
Scott
Your last comment won’t be approved because it violated 3 of my 4 Comment Rules. Please review the policy. Thank you.
I have a BIG issue w/ anyone who did not witness what actually happened- making definite statements on what actually happened. There is only one person who may say…GZ! And so far I’ve yet to find that statement. So until GZ is quoted and proven not to be concerned w/ self preservation…
As for the many little pieces of information made available by humans, which can be as biased as any, there are do seem to be useful and useless alike. I myself do not have an opinion. However, I am aware of the many perceptions and ideas that play a major part of the case. If you were going to comment (keep up w/ the facts), I could respect if upon reading I was not influenced to believe either way still. This is the first site that gave the impression that, “Maybe, just maybe, the killing of another human being after deciding alone that he was “acting strange” had some reasonable explanation. Start from beginning to end- re-examine your opinion and how its being influenced. Let’s face it…you were compelled (for some reason) to speak out about this particular case. Why?
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[destructure: I agree. I try to support my comments with quotes from witnesses.]
Destructure,
I’ve linked your summary from my blog as well. I commend your excellent work.
Pingback: Trayvon Martin FAQ- Keep Up With the Truth of Peak Negro | Deconstructing Leftism
Reblogged this on Deconstructing Leftism and commented:
Crucial information on the Trayvon Martin Incident.
here are the real faq’s , destructure
zimmerman had already made up his mind that martin was guilty…varius things he said totaly indicated that he thought martin was doing something wrong when he was doing othing wrong
then, and this is very important, based on the phone call from martin to his girl, which is fact, zimmerman comes up and asks “…what are you doing here ? ” instead of indentifying himself like ”
” hello sir, im the neihborhood watch person and im just checking to see if everything is ok…”
the guy is following martin, eying him, clearly trying to intimidate him, doesnt identify himself ( fact based on martin’s girl ) and, by the factual information of his diolougue with the 9/11 dispatcher, who cautioned him from doing anything, had already convicted martin in his mind
these are the facts , like it or lump it, very bad for zimmerman and he should be convicted of something
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[destructure: I agree with you except for the parts that GZ was "clearly trying to intimidate him" and "should be convicted of something." Following, staring, assuming guilt and asking someone what they're doing don't justify TM's attack on GZ. And that's what made this self-defense. TM had a cell-phone so if he felt threatened or harassed he should have called 911 himself.]
Scott,
So you’re saying that black men are so tempermentally unstable that everyone has to be extremely polite to them or they’re guilty of provoking them?
Here’s a hint, in our society you’re not allowed to attack someone for being merely impolite to you, especially if the impoliteness isn’t something that most people would even consider terribly rude.
Damn, I thought I was the racist, as I recognize statistical differences between the races—you’re practically denying Martin moral agency.
No way the commenter above is an attorney. No lawyer could be stupid enough to think an age difference is in any way relevant to anything.
Thank you for this. I have been looking at various sites to form a timeline of events, and even tried telling this information to other people. As big of a tragedy as TM’s death was, people are immediately jumping to conclusions before taking 10 minutes to understand the facts or even the events leading up to the shooting.
The big unanswered question, to me, after reviewing this thread, and some of the source material to which the OP links is:
Why did ‘Trayvon’ run off, during the early phone call, if he was totally innocent?
Secondarily, if ‘Trayvon’ feared Zimmerman, why did he come back (as Karissa demonstrates above)?
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[destructure: He was walking through a strange neighborhood after dark when a car slows down and watches him. I don't think being nervous and running are unreasonable. I might do the same myself. Coming back, however, is another story. And it's obvious he came back because there is no way a short, chubby guy is going to catch him even in a vehicle. It was after dark so he could have easily cut through backyards and gotten away.]
in my statement, i didnt mention anything about martin’s color. i didnt even say that zimmerman mentioned his color. i said that, by exactly his words, he was convinced that martin was doing something wrong “…they always get away “, when martin was innocent of any wrong doing up to that point.
and i don’t know about you , but if i perceive a strange man is eying me and following me, and then comes up and out of nowhere and says “…what are you doing here ?”, i am going to be on the high defensive mode, and may push the guy right away. Ive been attacked on the street before, by someone coming up and saying exactly that , and then hitting me. i was duking it out with this crazy right out in heavy traffic
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[destructure: Radicals have made an issue of Martin's ancestry so its not unreasonable jehu would make that inference from your comment. I'll grant you didn't say that. Still, it was Trayvon attacking Zimmerman so it's not unreasonable for him to defend himself. English is your second language so I edited your comment to make it a little more legible.]
More recent photos of ‘Trayvon’:
(1) Flashing (quasi-)gang-signs
(2) Displaying his ‘thug gold’ teeth
On closer inspection, those ‘gang signs’ are just his middle fingers. His pants are sagging down low, though. Everything about ‘Trayvon’ shouts “self-conscious thug”.
According to the Miami Herald, police were called to Twin Lakes 402 times in the 13 months prior to the killing. In that time, the community experienced eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting. Young Black males were suspects in those crimes. The police were being called to Twin Lakes almost every day for the last year or so. Zimmerman’s 46 calls to 911 over 8 years seems less alarming when you consider that the cops have to go there almost every day. Zimmerman may certainly be guilty of racial profiling but let’s be real. If young purple dinosaurs are suspects in the rash of crimes in your area you’re going to be concerned when you see a young purple dinosaur you’re not familiar with.
A gated community is not a public space. Gated communities are restricted access areas. As a resident, Zimmerman was not out of bounds in approaching Martin. He could have made better word choices hindsight being 20/20. There is a lot I wish had happened differently that night, for Martin most of all.
People are calling for his arrest. He hasn’t been arrested because they don’t have the evidence to do it. Signatures on a petition and millions of comments on the internet are not evidence and evidence has to be there to gather. That could change. I am looking forward to the results of the FBI investigation.
The race baiters are out full force. It seems that “justice” means Zimmerman will be arrested, tried and found guilty. What happens if that doesn’t come to pass? The threat of violence hangs over all of us.. It has come to this.
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[destructure: Even if he's convicted there will still be riots. I've been predicting riots this summer since last fall.]
I own a Keltec 9mm. It is a very small, very concealable handgun. It could be hidden In a back pocket. It is only slightly bigger than an I Phone.
All states that allow concealed carry require that concealment be constant and absolute. If it is possible to see that you are carrying, you can go to jail. So, I doubt it was in his waistban. You need a concealed holster or a full pocket enclosed to be legal.
A Keltec 9mm fires by “double action only”. This means that the trigger must be pulled back a long way against a strong spring for every shot. It is a very safe system because it takes a very deliberate effort with your trigger finger to make it go bang.
This is purely a last ditch self defense gun. Choosing one suggests that you are afraid of being corned by thugs.It is hard to be accurate at more than 10-15 feet. It would be a terrible choice if you were thinking of going after thugs to hunt them down..
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[destructure: According to the Orlando Sentinel he was carrying it in a holster in his waistband.]
facts :
1) the dispatcher advised zimmerman to not follow martin , to wait for the police, zimmerman totaly ignored that advice
2) in some of the comments made by zimmerman to the dispatcher , there are blatent references that shows zimmerman has convicted martin , in his mind , of being guilty of doing something that when martin at that time is totaly innocent of any illegal behavior
3 ) acording to the testimony of martin’s girlfreind, on the phone, after martin tells her he is being followed and eyed , she heard zimmerman come up to matin and ask “…what are you doing here ?” . there is absolutly no identification of who he is and what he represents . there is absolutly no sign that zimmerman said anything like ” i represent the neighborhood watch and id like to know what you are doing here…”
if martin , for any speculative reason , and, there could be several, attacked zimmerman, in any real
look at it, zimmerman bears some responsibility for it happening and it should be scrutinised in a court of law and society needs to look at it and learn.
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[destructure: As I've explained in my post, your first point is demonstrably false. Read the link where I ask, "What if Zimmerman didn’t ignore 911?" Comment Rules forbid repeating claims that are demonstrably false. You only get one warning.]
by the way, destructure, i posted in a certain way on the comments section and when it hit the screen, it had rearranged itself ( meaning before your rearrangement). i dont know why but it did…
im not really concerened , and i hope you arnt ,about passing spelling tests, i see that isnt in the comment policy , and, good guess about me not being from the country, but, i am from the country , i just dont live there now…
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[destructure: Spelling isn't a problem. I was just letting you know so you wouldn't think I changed your words.]
Scott
From the standpoint of the Law, there are not any acceptable reasons here why TM could iniate an “attack” on GZ. Following someone and asking rude questions does not add up to a hostile threat. If there are people out there who think that it does, or who feel entitled to assault anyone who disrespects them – well, just keep saying that. For my sake. I own stock in lots of gun companies..
amazing….those pics put up by hail….
bc someone waves there middle finger, and sags his pants, he’s a thug? and hell i know ppl that have gold in their mouth, who are some of the best people you would ever wanna meet….and the pic with the middle finger doesnt even look anything like trayvon…and definitely not 160 pounds…but this is a problem with america…WE JUDGE ON THE LOOK!!! did we forget that the killer has a brutal past as well….assault on an officer bc his friend was arrested for underage drinking…hmmmm…ummmm…sir, your friend broke the law…..hello. and his domestic issues with his girlfriend. i don’t think he’s afraid of the police…which is evident in the officer assault….but to murder your neighbor, bc he had a hoodie on carrying a cell phone skittles, and a tea is a disgusting, and terrible way to have handled this situation. out of all these blogs, articles, and news clips……tell me what, if anyone can, what exactly made zimmerman think trayvon looked suspicious???? no one not even zimmerman has yet to answer that simple question….and why did he follow him..after the dispatch said “we don’t need you to do that”…..idk….i always thought you run from trouble not to it….(and that is not to say trayvon was causing trouble, bc clearly he wasn’t)…..and another thing ppl don’t point out is that zimmerman did not want to give his address to the 911 operator as a place to meet him….why? well one reason I think was because, as he stated already he was following trayvon…now…he states that trayvon was coming towards him..correct….but then it turned to he was following trayvon….so if trayvon was coming towards him and seemed to be “checking” him out as zimmerman says, and if trayvon didn’t do anything why did he start to follow him? what made him sooooo suspicious…his hoodie, his cell, his skittles, his tea…or was it his color????
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[destructure: I don't think pictures of TM's gold teeth and middle finger "prove" anything other than the media and activists are falsely portraying TM as a model teen. GZ doesn't have a "brutal" past and he wasn't convicted of assault on an officer. Even if he had it wouldn't be relevant because one incident doesn't show a pattern of behavior. Just as it's not relevant TM was currently on suspension at the time of the incident. That's why I didn't mention either of those in my post.
To say he "murdered" TM because he "had a hoodie on carrying a cell phone skittles, and a tea" is a ridiculous 'straw man' argument. TM looked suspicious because he was a stranger walking in the neighborhood after dark. I've addressed the issue of whether GZ ignored 911 in "What if Zimmerman didn’t ignore 911?" The reason GZ didn't want to give his address is because he didn't know where TM was and didn't want to be overheard. The only questions that matter are: Who attacked whom? and was TM a credible threat?]
Pingback: Jonatha Carr FAU | destructure
I meant that a guy would choose a 9mm Keltec if they were afraid of being “cornered” by thugs.It really is a last ditch defensive gun.
I find it fascinating that the paper said that the magazine was still full and the only round fired had been the one in the chamber. When speaking of a semi-automatic pistol, that can only mean one thing – the pistol malfunctioned. After a shot, the chamber should be loaded unless the slide failed to cycle adequately. My Keltec is only reliable with extra hot NATO or plusP loads. I suspect most of them are like that. This suggests that Z.did not spend much time testing stuff at the range.
All this speculation about TM size and weight will be explicitly resolved. Autopsies do that.
I am surprised that Z was not drug tested. Where I live, that would be automatic and there is zero tolerance. Carrying pistol plus measurable alcohol = felony.
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[destructure: I agree the PF9 is a last ditch defensive gun. The quote about the magazine being full caught my eye, too. Your explanation of underpowered ammo is probably right. Apparently, GZ wasn't tested because he wasn't arrested. But I don't buy it. They should have tested him simply because he was involved in a homicide. Sanford PD was sloppy and now they're paying for it.]
“in some of the comments made by zimmerman to the dispatcher , there are blatent references that shows zimmerman has convicted martin , in his mind , of being guilty of doing something that when martin at that time is totaly innocent of any illegal behavior”
Scott, what is the specific illegal activity or crime that Zimmerman convicted Martin of? Please be specific.
While not bearing on the details of the fatal altercation itself, a black friend of Zimmerman’s says that he’s never shown any racist tendencies, and has been very broken up over Martin’s death.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shooting-friendbre82o0fe-20120325,0,1458950.story
“While not bearing on the details of the fatal altercation itself, a black friend of Zimmerman’s says that he’s never shown any racist tendencies, and has been very broken up over Martin’s death.”
Being suspicious of a late-teen black male is not racist, in fact it’s no different than being suspicious of a snake.
Most black teens are not criminals, and most snakes are not poisonous.
But A LOT are…
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[destructure: There's no reason to think GZ was suspicious of TM because he was black. The only time its mentioned on the 911 call is when the dispatcher asks if the suspect is white, black or hispanic.]
“There’s no reason to think GZ was suspicious of TM because he was black.”
I concur, and did not mean to suggest such, or that I share Scott’s imagined ability to read GZ’s thoughts.
My only point is that it is NOT abnormal to be wary of something that is potentially dangerous.
h , zimmerman doesnt need a specific activity to think martin is guilty, he just asumes it and it is clear
in various statements of his
says : its not a question of whether its ok or not for marin to attack zimmerman, its that zimmerman
certainly has some responsibility in why this happened and it should be scrutinised in a court of law.
destructure, then we need to establish a time line here about when martin was talking to his girl
freind and she heard him come up and say ” what are you doing here?”…does that mean that that is
when martin ran and then suposidly attacked zimmerman ? im not sure you can prove that that didnt
happen after he got the advice from the dispacther….no one indicates that the advice happens after
he asks martin “what are you doing here?” you may have heard him leave the truck after the advice
to ask martin what are you doing here then martin ran and he still was looking going against that
advice
i dont agree with your judgement on that one until there is more timeline proof
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[destructure: The timeline is easy to establish because the telecoms have call logs and GZ was talking to 911 most of the time. This is the timeline. GZ spots TM and calls 911. TM runs off. GZ gets out of the vehicle to follow him. The dispatcher tells GZ to stop and he does. GZ ends his call with 911. TM confronts GZ to ask why he followed him earlier. GZ asks what TM is doing there. GZ starts to leave and TM attacks him from behind. By the way, it doesn't matter whether GZ followed TM or not. That has no bearing on the case. The only thing that matters is who attacked who and whether TM was a credible threat.]
“zimmerman doesnt need a specific activity to think martin is guilty, he just asumes it and it is clear
in various statements of his”
You did not answer my question. Here is your exact quote…
” there are blatent references that shows zimmerman has convicted martin”
Once again…be specific…what are the specific “blatant references” and what specifically did he “convict” Martin of?
If you can’t answer my specific question, please be honest enough to admit it.
Thank you.
blatent referance that zimmerman is afraid that martin is guilty and is getting away ” they always get away” there is no indication that he thinks he is innocent until proven guilty
destructure, your time line is weak…first of all, if zimmerman heard the dispatcher advise him
to not do anything until the police got there, and , he said ” ok” as stated, and then he got out and you can hear noises, then why didnt we hear the screams and gun shot ? oviously the attack happened more time after he heard the warning.
he couldnt just be looking at a street corner and martin just attacked him…if that was when martin asked “why are you following me?”, he saw martin ,AND APROACHED HIM , when h should have immediatly gone back to the truck as the dispatcher gave good advice to not go after martin and wait for the police.
why? because what happened is why he is not suposed to aproach a suspect
so i still say fact : zimmerman ignored the good advice of the dispatcher and aproached the suspect
and that did lead to a violent altercation that led to martins death…this urge on his part to gung ho
it instead of wait for the real authorities is the suspect behaviour on zimmerman’s part that needs to be scrutinized in a court of law.
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[destructure: On the 911 call, there is a bell dinging which indicates his door is open with the key still in the ignition. The dispatcher asks if he's following because he heard the bell. The dispatcher also asks GZ to wait outside by the mailboxes for the officer. And, finally, there is no way a short, chubby Mexican is going to catch a tall black 17 yr old football player on foot. TM came back and confronted GZ.]
A few things I would like to point out:
The news said one shot had been fired, they said nothing about the chamber being empty (unless I missed it).
Everyone is saying the police didnt do their job. The police haverr done everythiong as they were supposed to, even down to reenacting the scene. Residue tests, as I’ve seen mentioned would have been obsolete because there was no doubt who the shooter was. The no confidence vote was given by elected officials because of political backlash. I find it really odd that a police chief and a prosecuter would step down because they were incompetent. I think they stepped down because GZ has no chance of a fair trial because of the race card.
I would also like to know why the facebook page was removed if there was nothing that would have affected the outcome of this case? There is a lot of mention of “thug” but according to the twitter and fb screenshots i’ve seen that description is on the mark. His messages refer to himself as “Nigga” and there are drug references in the content of the messages.
You say TM’s history is not revelant but it is my understanding that he swung at a bus driver, which demonstrates his lack of authority towards adults. He may not have been doing anything but walking but if that is the case why did he not call the police himself when confronted by someone? Why are we taking his girlfriends statement as gospel considering she was clearly biased?
To the attorney that commented: your comment is the exact reason why this case is blowing up. You talk about being neutral on one line and then start taking sides in the case. My opinion is that this has turned in to a guilty until proven innocent, especially sice GZ has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion with misleading facts and guesses as to what happened. Also, the burden of proof is not on GZ because he hasn’t been charged.
I find our system pathetic that the police and judicial system is considered incompetent because they dont arrest a man that has no evidence against him and several cooberrating statements that match his. The sad part is that he will be arrested because of public outcry even though there wasnt evidence in the first place. This is one reason why the justice system should not contain elected officials.
If GZ is innocent (i cannot say because I wasnt there), all of you people with the mob mentality are persecuting him for protecting himself. If hes guilty, give police time to get all the evidence together. Have faith in our justice system or go live in a country with a different one.
Note: RACE SHOULD NOT PLAY A PART IN THIS AT ALL.
[destructure: This comment has been deleted for violating the first three Comment Rules. Mindless repetition, failure to support position and repeating claims that are demonstrably false.]
Fundamentally, what happened here is that someone I don’t know and will never meet killed someone I don’t know and would never have met anyway.
Epistemically, it is interesting because most reports are intentionally or negligently distorting the facts, and so it forms a good test of reliability and of your habits for detecting spin. The facts being as they are, my only worry is that they’re a little too clean. Only one contradiction? destructure, do you have any marginal or otherwise contaminated evidence that’s been omitted?
Scott, however, cares a great deal that everyone think GZ is guilty. Why? Does he know the man? Does he expect to be on the jury? Is he secretly a prosecutor? What personal interest does he have in this case?
Scott, can you admit the facts don’t look good for your case? Will you point to specific examples of evidence that you will admit lead, reasonably, to the conclusion that this is a case of self-defence? Can you explain how this evidence is misleading, and under what kind of conditions similar evidence will likely be misread in the future?
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[destructure: If you think I'm leaving something out tell me. I'll consider modifying the FAQ regardless of whose position it supports.]
“they always get away”
This comment is accurate based on previous events. Zimmerman had called the police numerous times due to suspicious activity, yet by the time the police arrived, the suspect was gone. There is ZERO “blatant reference” to guilt. Once again, there is ZERO “blatant reference”. You still have not stated any specific wrongdoing that Zimmerman “convicted” Martin of.
BTW, you have already convicted Zimmerman, even though you don’t have a clue what actually happened. That makes you a hypocrite.
Here is a link with more info about the little choir-boy Trayvon, definitely worth reading…
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer
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[destructure: The character of either of these guys may suggest what happened but it's not evidence. Even prostitutes get raped sometimes.]
From the comments section of a Yahoo article, from someone who claims to know Zimmerman…
“George called 911 to report a suspicious person. As he got off the phone the kid attacked him and started beating the crap out of him and slamming his head against the walkway. All the while saying “you’re gunna die tonight motherfucker”. George was screaming help when someone in a nearby apartment called 911 again. George’s shirt came up while the kid was beating him, revealing the gun that he is licensed to carry. The kid went for the gun and they struggled for it, George ended up shooting the kid and saving his own life. All these people on yahoo saying that he should be in jail when they don’t even know what happened. George is the brother-in-law of one of our good family friends, works with my parents, and is one of the nicest most gentle people you will ever meet. He’s completely devastated that this happened and has barely been functional from the guilt. No one shoots someone for no reason, and especially not George. And they need to stop pulling the race card, George is Hispanic, not white.”
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[destructure: While plausible, an anonymous comment from a Yahoo article isn't credible.]
truth , specific statements that indicate zimmerman thinks martin is guilty :
“looks like he is up to no good or hes on drugs or something” he definitly wasnt either
“he has his hand on his waist band, something is wrong with him, yup hes coming to check me out
hes got something in his hands…”
“they always get away”
those are some of the statements that indicate that zimmermon already thinks he is guilty of doing something
he absulutly never identifies himself as with neighborhood watch ( self apointed)
i really wonder how many gun owners out there, if they were walking around , perceived that someone
was following them and got out of their car , wouldnt go into high defensive mode
“looks like he is up to no good or hes on drugs or something”
This is Zimmerman’s opinion based on his observation. The phrase “looks like” clearly suggests he is giving a description based on his observation. He never suggests that any crimes are being committed, or that illegal activities are taking place.
You still have not answered my question. What was the SPECIFIC act that Zimmerman convicted Martin of committing?
If you are unable to be specific, please be honest enough to admit it.
Thank you.
“he has his hand on his waist band, something is wrong with him ”
“they always get away..”
“he looks like hes on drugs ”
i said he convicted him in his mind, it doesnt need to be a specific act, he made up his mind that
martin was guilty…….why in gods name didnt he identify who he was ? any one of you would go
into high defensive mode if you perceived someone was following you, eyeing you,
and if you saw that person get out of a truck, your adrenalin would kick in on high
admit your trying to paint me in a corner is flimsy
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[destructure: GZ may have thought TM was a thief. TM may have thought GZ was following him to start something. It doesn't matter what either of them thought about the other. The only thing that matters is who attacked whom and whether TM was a credible threat.]
If Amie is an attorney I feel sorry for her clients. I sure wouldn’t hire her.
Drudge has a link stating that TM was suspended for having a plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it. Any word on if / when postmortem toxicology screening was done on TM?
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[destructure: An MSNBC report released 1 hour ago says,"Toxicology test results were still pending on the body of Martin."]
“i said he convicted him in his mind”
You can’t read his mind, therefore this statement is pure conjecture. However, it is interesting to note that you have already convicted Zimmerman. You are guilty of doing exactly what you accuse him of doing.
“it doesnt need to be a specific act”
You claimed that Zimmerman “convicted” Martin, yet you are incapable of even stating what Zimmerman “convicted” Martin of. Therefore your claim is unproven and baseless.
“he made up his mind that martin was guilty”
No, the only person who has convicted anyone is YOU.
if some one want following me at night i wood ran a ways and not come back
then i phone the cops
NOT go back at attack
that’s why he is now DEAD because he attack him
(i am in the uk)
all over the uk news is that this poor black ***** got shot and how bad the USA is not all still not nice to Sucm bag that attack you
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[destructure: Like you say, the news is reporting the USA isn't nice. But as soon as the evidence starts to gain traction the story will vanish. The news won't go back and report they were wrong. And people will still be left with the impression the US isn't nice.]
Destructure:
I just saw that too googling a few moments ago. The line of thinking I am going through:
GZ states to 911 that TM appears to be on drugs or something. Was TM under the influence of something that would have impaired his judgement with enhanced aggressiveness? If toxicology comes back negative, this whole line of speculation goes bye-bye. If TM did have something in him at a level to impair, then I think any case against GZ will pretty much fall apart. This becomes another Duke Lacross moment.
Reading the interview from people who knew GZ well, he does not come across in anyway as an angry, violent, or aggressive person. His injuries (as reported) show that GZ was on the receiving end of a beat down.
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[destructure: I definitely think this is Duke lacrosse all over again. The problem is that stories like this get everyone stirred up. They're full of rage and emotions that an injustice has been done. When the facts come out the story vanishes, But people are still left prejudiced by the emotions it conjured up.]
Trayvon Martin Shooter Told Cops Teenager Went For His Gun
George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch crime captain who shot dead 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, originally told police in a written statement that Martin knocked him down with a punch to the nose, repeatedly slammed his head on the ground and tried to take his gun, a police source told ABC News.
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-shooter-told-cops-teenager-went-gun-030349812–abc-news.html
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[destructure: Bingo! The police are finally starting to release some information.]
The quote about the magazine being full caught my eye, too. Your explanation of underpowered ammo is probably right.
Or someone was holding the slide?
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[destructure: Possible. But these little guns are known for FTF.]
The death weapon was a Kel-Tec PF9 semiautomatic 9mm pistol. It has been reported that the gun was recovered with a full magazine and that only the chambered round had been fired. This is a condition we associate with something preventing the gun from cycling a fresh round from the magazine into the chamber after the shot was discharged. One thing that can cause that is another man’s hand wrapped around the pistol, retarding its slide mechanism. This would indicate, as could certain gunshot residue patterns or cuts in certain places if found on Trayvon Martin’s hand(s), that a struggle for a gun was taking place when the fatal shot was fired. This would clearly change the shape of the case. But – WE DON’T KNOW YET.
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2012/03/23/george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-what-we-dont-know/
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[destructure: Don't overreach. If TM's hands come back clean then people will question GZ's account even though it doesn't disprove his account. That's known as the "argument from fallacy" or the idea that just because a claim contains a false statement that the claim itself is invalid.]
Off-Topic, but an interesting side-note…little Trayvon’s grieving mother is trying to trademark his name.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123
Amazing…
Having used semiauto pistols before, another possibility is that if you don’t properly absorb the recoil, often times the ejection of the spent round and advance of the next bullet doesn’t work properly. It’s likely that his grip was a long way from optimal if he was attempting to hastily deploy his pistol or even struggling to retain it.
This blog is a breath of fresh air in a quagmire of BS. Thank you for providing a sane, reasonable, objective account of the facts.
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[destructure: It's good to hear people appreciate my efforts. Several hours went into this post.]
Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened Feb. 26. But that night, and in later meetings, he described and re-enacted for police what he says took place.
In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.
(snip)
Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that.
There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they’re not sure what happened.
Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.
Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.
Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-civil-rights-punch
h, you are trapped in your own semantical trip ups and i just refuse to go down your semantics road.
these things that zimmerman sais are reflective of a nervous individual who inspite of being warned
not to go after martin, is so nervous and wound up and so convinced that martin , who is totaly
innocent at that moment, is guilty of something. that is why he is going after him. your problem if you cant see that. i personaly would be upset if someone who is an armed self appointed neighborhood watch person, is making such wrong judgements about an innocent person .
i want to make it clear, ive made no racial implications up to this point inspite of there being a posible serious example that hasnt been totaly deciphered yet, an, i didnt say he was guilty, that again would be someones semantical mix up.
i say, with the realities of exactly what he said, with him ignoring the dispatcher , and most important of all, he didnt identify himself in any way, that his actions should be scrutinised in a court of law.
im totaly aware of the incriminating evidence against martin, i wouldnt argue that at one point he was on top of zimmerman pundhing him…there is a whole lot of unfactual speculation going on here for a faq sheet
meaning i wouldnt argue that martin didnt end up on top of zimmerman punching him
since i havent said anything about race yet, im going to throw in my opinion about the reacial aspect
its all just a huge indication of the racial devide in the usa
if and i do mean if, martin attacked zimmerman, it could be one of two reasons. he could have done it because he was actualy seriously on the defensive that someone was stalking him and following him around .
fact, martin had no idea who zimmerman was and could have thought he was some crazy nut who was stalking him
and , he might have felt anger at being discriminated against when he is innocent, and snapped
if zimmerman hadnt shot him, martin would have gone to jail for attacking
the funny thing, martin’s father was a paid resident of this comunity, zimmerman was suposed to have been protecting martin
A comment at JewAmongYou pointed me to this FAQ, and I wanted to tip my hat to you for your cautious and responsible reporting on this incident. It seems clear enough at this stage that credentialed “journalists” were remiss not to ask obvious questions before running with a tempting narrative, and it’s refreshing to see amateur bloggers — like you — stepping in to provide the corrective.
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[destructure: Thanks. We only know about the media malpractice on this issue because we've bothered to look into it. But think of how skewed the reporting could be on other issues that we haven't looked into.]
if zimmerman hadnt shot him, martin would have gone to jail for attacking
If Zimmerman hadn’t shot him, he could have been beaten to death. If the police report is accurate that TM was 6′, 160 lbs, he was more than capable of doing so to a man he just partially disabled with a sucker punch to the nose.
Martin started to approach him while Zimmerman was talking to dispatch, but then ran. Zimmerman followed for a short distance but lost sight of him for the final two minutes of his call.
Using Google Maps, I determined that Brandy Green’s apartment (Martin’s father’s g/f’) was approximately .1 miles and could be walked within 3 minutes from the point that Zimmerman and Martin first encounter each other (Corner of Long Oak Way and Twin Trees Lane) if remaining on the road or sidewalk with no shortcuts being used.
From the initial contact to the crime scene is approximately 30 yards. From the crime scene to Brandy Green’s apartment is 100 yards.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120322122604AA0RpHg
Interesting about the Facebook page disappearing:
I found it last week, posted it to some sites, emailed it to others, like SBPDL:
TO:
Stuff
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:30 PM
Here’s his Facebook page which looks like it’s been scrubbed of his posts:
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1353307542
From: http://www.ktuu.com/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-tension-20120317,0,5091262.story
Trayvon was under a five-day suspension when he was shot that Sunday night, but Kypriss said it was due to tardiness and not misbehavior.
There was not a single post on it by him, a few responses to others, a lot of messages by others, no pictures of him, and I remember noticing that in October he changed his school. I imagine it took the lawyers at least a week to get it to the condition I saw it in so I find it funny it’s been deleted. Guess they realized that maybe that cousin asking him about “smoke” and flashing a gang sign was a liability after all — kind of like having Amie as your lawyer, nice take-down destructure. GZ’s lawyer I am sure has a copy of the page saved.
destructure, I asked if you had left anything out because I didn’t know what your methodological habits are. You answered that question, so thank you.
I still want to know a few examples of what you considered and rejected, though, if any.
________________________________
[destructure: In previous comments, I mention several things people are focusing on I consider irrelevant. Such as the race of either participant and whether either has been in trouble before. If those things had a specific bearing on this incident then I'd consider them. But whether GZ had some assault charges dropped several years ago is irrelevant. Just like TM's suspension, drug habits and attack on a bus driver are irrelevant. As I said earlier, that doesn't make one guilty because even a prostitute can be raped. By the way, I gave an example of that in my last post.]
“h, you are trapped in your own semantical trip ups and i just refuse to go down your semantics road.”
I don’t give a damn what you do. You are the one making claims that you can’t back up.
BTW, “semantical” is not a word.
“these things that zimmerman sais are reflective of a nervous individual”
That’s your opinion, and it is irrelevant. The things you write on this forum are reflective of a person filled with hate. You hate Zimmerman, and you want him arrested because you hate him.
“that is why he is going after him.”
He was suspicious. There is no law against being suspicious. You continue to lie about his motives because you are filled with hate.
And since you still have not stated specifically what Zimmerman convicted Martin of, it is obvious that you are incapable of doing so.
“martin attacked zimmerman, it could be one of two reasons.”
He attacked him because he’s a thug and he assumed that the short fat Zimmerman would be an easy target. Zimmerman acted in self-defense, and is not guilty.
Thanks again – that’s everything I was curious about. My conclusion is that you really do prefer including all evidence that’s relevant to your case. Since I basically agree about what’s relevant, then what I see here is that the fact tell a clear, simple, and dare I say stereotypical tale. (This is part of my methodological habits – in principle I can now call you on omitting evidence if I find out that you have. You didn’t try to evade this trap, which is a great sign.)
It is a little clearer than usual, but nothing wildly out of the ordinary. Sometimes the truth isn’t actually that hard to find, and this looks like one of those cases.
One thing to think about – those things are indeed irrelevant to whether a crime has been committed.
I basically but do not entirely agree they’re irrelevant at all. They are relevant to determining whether the apparent facts are reliable.
Someone who carries a gun and approaches strangers is more aggressive (stated as morally neutral) than average. Is such a person likely to get an assault charge? Yes. Approach enough strangers and you’ll make a mistake, for example.
Is someone who will attack essentially unprovoked likely to have a record of previous crimes and punishments? Yes.
This is why the MSM tries to mislead us about their histories. It is one thing to claim that a man with many misdemeanours in the end got killed by misdemeaning the wrong victim. It is quite another to claim that a law abiding honour student decided to start a life of crime and got immediately killed.
Similarly, it is one thing to claim that an aggressive, confrontational kind of guy let a confrontation get out of hand. Law of large numbers, if nothing else. It is quite another to claim that a shrinking violet who normally isn’t even armed happened to arm themselves AND start confronting strangers.
But, I’ll stress, having a criminal record is not in itself a crime. While we should generally expect a battery perpetrator to have previous records, we should not conclude that anyone with previous records will perpetrate battery.
Confrontation is likewise not illegal. Even on public property, let alone in a gated community.
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[destructure: One thing to keep in mind. In court, TM's background will be admissable but GZ's won't. That's because the defendant is allowed every means available to raise reasonable doubt as to his guilt. So if it turns out TM has a history of violence then that can be used to clear GZ. But GZ's own history can't be used against him. That's just the law.]
Great post. Lots of interesting facts.
While nobody really knows what went on, there are lots of very suspicious issues.
The worst, of course, a group putting up a bounty for apprehending Zimmermann. For what? not to turn him in to police. He is not fleeing police. Only for mayhem and/or killing, what else? Such a group is clearly a outlaw terrorist hate group. Where is the justice department?
The funny story about putting up cute childhood photos of Trayvon. Whey don’t you put up some childhood photos of Zimmermann? or even entire body photos to see if he is out of shape?
Nobody so far mentioned my suspicion: They can not find a single inoffensive cute looking photo of Trayvor when older. Or they really want to paint him as cute little kiddie. Now, anyone tries to define the age of the photos? if they are 2 years old, that is a huge difference: 15 or 17 years old.
Oh, and most commenters that defend Trayvon think it is perfectly correct to attack a white man if he suspects a black boy of being criminal, or if he follows him in an unoffensive way.
Also, why does Trayvon’s lawyer not disclose his school record? Looks like he has something to hide. This is extremely important. The mainstream press paints him a innocent good student, and most suspicions are not clearly proven but could be checked.
It also does not look like Zimmermann hunted the boy in order to shoot him. He trails people but does not shoot them. He looks like a neighborhood watch guy, overzealous at the most, but not a vigilante.
But I think most HBD and race realist people would never defend Zimmermann if it turns out he shot without ever being threatened. Note you can already shoot if a guy closes in on you whild you tell him to stay away. No need to wait to get punched.
Also it is interesting that the most important issue is: “did he use a racial epithet”. If he said “the n.gger is coming towards me”, then it is a hate crime and he will get double jeopardy.
Also it is rarely mentioned that Zimmermann was injured. Why don’t they put up photos and hospital records. Anyone suspects self inflicted injury? very unlikely.
finally, someone mentioned that autopsy would show it Trayvon has hurt hands from hitting. Very very relevant. Maybe Obama should have checked for such facts before speaking out.
Here are some interesting facts, including Zimmermanns past history.
http://www.ktuu.com/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-tension-20120317,0,5091262.story
Visit the race and iq section of Human-Stupidity and comment. No, nothing about that specific case, mainly discussion about race, iq, and if race is “socially constructed”
destructure, new fact :
it was one minute since zimmerman got out of his truck and martin came up to him ( i saw this official fact and sorry i dont have a link right now)
one minute is a long time as far as time to get out of your vehicle and get back in.
he didnt just get out of the vehicle and was attacked, he was walking around for one minute , which is indicating he just wasnt looking at a street sign, he was looking for martin
that reinforces the fact that zimmerman ignored the dispatchers advice and left the vehicle to look for martin
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[destructure: The dispatcher told him to wait outside by the mailboxes for the officer. So that doesn't add anything new to the story.]
I would really like to say that 90% of people that talk to dispatchers don’t follow their advice. I would also like to add that it’s ONLY advice. If you think you are doing something that is better than what you are told to do, you will keep doing it.
Let’s give this scenario. If you’ve called the cops a month ago and they told you not to stop someone who was breaking in to your car because they didn’t want you to get hurt. Let’s say you listened to the dispatcher and the cops didn’t get there in time to catch the guy. Now, the next month you find yourself in a similar situation, you would tell yourself that the police are not going to get there in time so you have to stop the guy yourself until the police arrive.
That was just an example, I’m not saying it happened, I’m simply saying that there is no crime with not listening to a dispatcher.
now here is a definite fact, someone didnt take the dispatchers advice and someone ended up dead
who was totaly innocent before he was stalked
it is exactly that advice and the ignoring of it, that i think should be scrutinised by a court of law and
scrutinised by
the american public to see if they really want that kind of thing
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[destructure: There's no evidence GZ followed TM after the dispacther's suggestion. And it wouldn't matter if he did.]
Scott,
In the US we don’t put people in jail for taking perfectly legal actions contrary to non-binding advice. You’re grasping at straws here because you see a dead person and you want SOMEONE to be punished. Letting people who look out of place in a community know that they’ve been noticed andq will be watched is in fact the whole point of a neighborhood watch program. Live in a neighborhood with comparable levels of crime to Zimmerman’s before you pass any judgment on him.
A 911 operator has the same legal authority as a 7/11 clerk. I agree that there are quite a few unanswered questions. For example, was Zimmerman’s nose really broken? But just because there are unresolved questions doesn’t mean there should be a trial. That’s why investigations happen first. No real point in proceeding to the arrest and trial stage if you don’t have a prayer of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
Destructure: Thanks for this post, it’s good stuff. And nice takedown of the attorney in the first few posts.
What about the validity of what the mobs have been saying that it was 3 days before police called Martin’s family? Wasn’t his father right there in the community, nearby?
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[destructure: That's a legitimate question that crossed my mind as well. My guess is that TM's mother had custody and they couldn't reach her.]
The “3-day” thing was one of the main points made by the mob, declaring the police had no regard for the black kid and was used to work people up into a frenzy. That one point made me question how much of everything they said was true. The media just throws things out and rarely ever corrects it. Remember “a lie can go around the world before the truth has a chance to put on it’s boot’s.”
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[destructure: If you're questioning the police because of the 3 day allegation then don't. The police wanted to charge GZ with manslaughter. It was the state's attorney who said they lacked enough evidence to act on it.]
No, I wasn’t questioning anything, except I just didn’t believe that the police didn’t do everything they could to notify his family asap. That’s standard practice. They made it seem like the police didn’t notify anybody for 3 days. That’s what I questioned. They had his cellphone with all the numbers and there would be no reason for them not to try and track down his family, unlike what the mob was trying to make people believe.
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[destructure: It's interesting, though. The mobs have been criticizing the police. And it turns out the police wanted to charge GZ with manslaughter. That undermines claims of police malfeasance. The protesters and MSM have been wrong every step of the way on this.]
Gofer-
RE: claims they didn’t notify the family for 3 days. Check out this story from the New York Post about how churches are replacing the wine and wafers with tea and skittles. And just in time for Easter. It’s enough to make one nauseous.
Pingback: Stares at the World » Poor Little Trayvon: Profiteering Off Hate
Destructure @ 5:49 p.m.
Some claim the police didn’t notify the family for three days. If that’s true, it’s equally true that the family didn’t come looking for him for three days.
Three days in the morgue… yes, very Easterish. I like Lawrence Auster’s comment on that report about the churches:
“For example, was Zimmerman’s nose really broken?”
I’m wondering this myself. GZ’s attorney said specifically on national tv that his nose was broken. If he’s lying, it would look bad.
Good article…
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017852036_trayvonfacts28.html
I came across this blog post from OneSTDV. One item brought up by many is that George Zimmerman’s father is a retired judge and therefore there is a high probability that his father influenced either the police department, the state attorney’s office, or both. This may be why the state attorney decided to drop charges.
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[destructure: The charges weren't dropped because GZ was never charged. There are lots of retired judges. So I doubt the state's attorney had ever heard of George let alone knew his father had been a judge. If it turns out he did it could look bad for both of them. Regardless, it's a moot point for GZ when it goes to trial. But it won't be moot for Wolfinger come election time.]
I should have said charges were never FILED. You are correct on that aspect.
As for the Judge situation, we won’t know for sure, but if the family/new state prosecutor wants to go that route they’ll need to get a subpoena for phone records, etc. correct?
Either way, I believe the more plausible situation (following the principles of Occum’s Razor) is that the state prosecutor believed that there wasn’t enough evidence to take George Zimmerman to trial and therefore made that decision. This is getting increasingly likely after looking at the whole picture.
Still, the fact that Zimmerman’s father is a judge does not look good.
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[destructure: You're right. It looks bad for GZ. And it looks even worse for Wolfinger's re-election.]
No question. It just changes the dynamic of the situation where the original state prosecutor intervened.
If I were George Zimmerman, I would actually press for a trial and then let the State of Florida argue with itself. After the jury delivers a not guilty verdict which clears my name I sue the pants off of the state, AND all of the other parties involved for defamation of character.
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[destructure: I'm not a lawyer so I don't have a qualified opinion. You may be right as far as state courts go. But if something comes out in the trial that can be used to try him in federal court he could be in trouble. That violates the spirit of double jeopardy but it happens. And it would be a lot harder for GZ to be acquitted in federal court. I think GZ would have been better off if he had been charged in the first place. Then he would have been acquitted without all the attention. Now, even if he's cleared his life has been ruined.]
Video Link: The Trayvon Shooting: Fact Versus Fantasy.
Jared Taylor of American Renaissance discusses the controversy.
Well, he still gets the lawsuits, which I am confident can be won.
I am reading a lot of the tweets on Twitter and even many liberal folk are starting to doubt they have a chance:
There can potentially be riots if the State doesn’t prosecute or if a not guilty verdict is levied.
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[destructure: I agree. Lawsuits and civil unrest are both likely.]
In the long run, I highly doubt the American Public would want emergency dispatcher’s instructions to be legally binding with the main reason being that the emergency dispatcher is not truly aware of the whole situation.
So why would we give an entity/person who has an extremely limited perspective legal authority?
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[destructure: I agree with that, too.]
ABC News claims no evidence of injuries to GZ
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[destructure: A broken nose usually isn't visible. But I watched the video and saw a cut on the back of his head. Regardless, several witnesses confirm the injuries.]
ABC is STILL inexplicably showing the photos of young 12-year-old Trayvon instead of his current thug pics.
Also, isn’t it likely that GZ had received some sort of treatment by this time?
Perhaps next they’ll show us video of GZ on the grassy knoll.
RE: The ABC News Video inside the Police Station
The cut on the back of his head is clearly visible, and it certainly isn’t some artifact on the screen as the officer standing right next to him is bald himself.
Also, notice how the big ABC News Exclusive banner obscures the view of his head until the latter part of the video where you can only get a one-two second view of the complete back of the head.
As an aside, let’s buy the left’s argument that because George Zimmerman’s son was a judge, that he got him off.
Why would the ENTIRE police department make up all of the stuff about him bleeding, etc.? Why would the 13 year old witness lie? The EMS report would have to be a lie as well, if we are to buy that he has no visible bruises on the video, etc.
Laughable.
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[destructure: Great points. I had already seen the gash. But I hadn't noticed the strategic placement of their banner.]
“Why would the ENTIRE police department make up all of the stuff about him bleeding, etc.? Why would the 13 year old witness lie?”
I asked these same questions 18 years ago.
“Why would 4 police officers who don’t even know each other conspire to frame OJ Simpson when, for all they know, he could have been vacationing in Switzerland??”
To those who have already made up their minds, logic and reason do not apply.
Source: http://www.wesh.com/r/30787479/detail.html
A few paragraphs in:
As I suspected. The State Attorney didn’t move forward because there wasn’t enough evidence.
LOL to all the jerks who tried every trick in the book.
Also, another interesting tidbit:
My guess is that she doesn’t have enough. She would have tried to charge already.
BUT, her hand may be forced anyway. There is no way that when she calls the Governor’s office that he’ll say it is OK to not press charges.
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[destructure: I give my reaction in Trayvon Martin political analysis.
New Twitter pic of Trayvon…
http://cdn2.dailycaller.com/2012/03/Photo_on_2010-06-17_at_16.05__2_DC.jpg
If Obama had a son, this is what he’d look like.
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[destructure: I have to admit that even with the middle finger he doesn't "look" like a complete thug. It's hard to tell what someone is really like from a picture.]
The current pictures of Trayvon are irrelevant as to whether he is a thug or not.
What they DO clearly show is a built 17 year old who is more than capable of starting a fight. THAT is what I would show as George Zimmerman’s lawyer.
As his lawyer, his job is quite easy, actually. He just needs to show that Zimmerman COULD have been attacked by Trayvon and COULD be seen as a credible threat at 7:00pm at night.
That’s really it.
The picture of Trayvon that the left is silently selling is that of a defenseless kid. “He only had Iced Tea and Skittles!!!!”.
As an aside, since you are following this case far more than anyone I know of, where did the actual altercation take place? Was it near the mailboxes that Zimmerman said he was heading towards during the 911 call to meet police?
And where was the altercation in proximity to his vehicle?
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[destructure: That's a good question. GZ mentions 111 Retreat View Circle at one point on the 911 call. And the police report lists the shooting address as 2841 Retreat View Circle. I found a streetview map showing the proximity but I haven't confirmed its accuracy. I read a comment estimating the distance to GZ's truck and the apartment he was staying to be 30 yards and 0.1 of a mile, respectively. I haven't confirmed the accuracy of that either. But if its true then TM could have easily jogged home in the minute that GZ was still on the phone with 911.]
Thanks so much for posting this, I will post it whenever I encounter uninformed people seeking to punish Mr. Zimmerman for defending himself. I believe he was acting within the boundaries of Florida law.
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[destructure: You're welcome. That's why I made it.]
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Actually Zimmerman was arrested. He was handcuffed and taken to the police station. It is clear that the Stanford Police are liable for that false arrest. According to the facts at the scene there was no probable cause to make an arrest. I would like to know if Zimmerman was mirandized during questioning.
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[destructure: They detained him, read him his rights and took him into custody. But police are allowed to hold someone for a certain period without charging them. Since they didn't charge him I'm guessing he wasn't technically "arrested". The Sanford police didn't act in bad faith and they released him without charge. So they're not liable for false arrest.]
No, they are allowed to take someone in for questioning, they can’t hold him indefinitely without charging however.
Whatever we can speculate, as long as they properly process all of the forensic information present at the scene of the crime and on Zimmerman’s body, the answer has to come out. On Trayvon: blood/bruising on his knuckles (or lack thereof), angle/penetration of the bullet, and any other physical abnormalities – maybe a voice analysis of the “Help” cries (are those reliable/exist??). On Zimmerman: blood/bruising on his knuckles, head, or clothes, ballistic forensics of the shot (how far away he was and why the semi-automatic gun only shot one bullet – held onto by Trayvon or simply malfunctioned), and witness reports (taken with a grain of salt b/c eyewitnesses are chronically unreliable, as proved through psychology experiments and past cases, but if a consensus prevails, as one seems to have, they may be taken into careful consideration).
As to our completely speculative/ultimately worthless guesses as to how “it all went down”, it seems to me that Zimmerman could have followed or attempted to find Trayvon, if he saw the direction he ran in (which from the body location was towards his house, no? Initial sighting location was further away?), which could give credence to the idea that Zimmerman was “looking for trouble”. On that note, he said “Ok” to stop following Trayvon, and complied (at least while on phone, or simply was walking slowly instead of jogging or walking briskly so his breathing slowed) – however it seemed odd to me that Zimmerman DIDN’T want to meet at an appointed meeting place (suggested by the 911 call responder) – in fact, he asked to be CALLED first, which indicates to me he was thinking about looking for Trayvon the moment he got off the phone. Of course, all speculation and nothing compared to forensic intelligence, but interesting nonetheless. Also, there is again the voice analysis issue when Zimmerman may have said “fucking coons” or “fucking goons” at 2:22 on the 911 tape (1 = racial, 2 = aggressive, either one isn’t too promising for him) as he’s starting to follow Trayvon. I agree he seemed a little hyped up from the tapes – “they always get away”, the coon/goon comment, and his 49 calls (many/all of which were false alarms – anyone have a # on how many times he was actually right about one of those?) details here: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-911-20120319_1_neighborhood-county-sheriff-s-office-crime-watch . So he’s been a busy beaver, and maybe a bit of an angry beaver as well.
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[destructure: That's all true. But even if every speculation went against GZ (ie following, voice, etc) there could still be grounds for self defense because witnesses claim GZ was being beaten. It always goes back to who attacked whom. GZ doesn't have to prove it was self defense. The prosecutor has to prove it wasn't. And I'm not sure there's enough evidence to do that beyond a reasonable doubt.]
Pingback: Trayvon Martin, Black Rage and Political Correctness
Really? I watch “The Young Turks” on youtube for political news and they said that the Stand Your Ground law states that the self-defender has the burden of proving it was self defense (I.e. mentally and physically in danger, or something to that effect). If the prosecutor has to prove it was NOT self defense, isn’t that a very backwards way of saying someone can just start a scuffle with someone and then shoot them, and it would be hard to prove they shot them in bad faith if nobody saw who started it….
“I watch “The Young Turks” on youtube”
There’s a reason this show is relegated to YouTube.
They’re idiots…
Adam writes, “I watch ‘The Young Turks’ on youtube for political news and they said…
As far as the “stand your ground” law goes, the courts have long since set the precedent in Florida that the burden of proof is on the prosecutor. I link to a Mother Jones article discussing this. But I doubt GZ would even need to invoke the “stand your ground” defense. If Tray attacked GZ and was on top of him beating him then GZ would be justified even without that law. Since witnesses claim at least part of this was the case, the prosecutor would pretty much have to prove GZ attacked TM to get a conviction.
In case you’re not familiar with Mother Jones, its a left-wing publication headquartered in San Francisco. I don’t agree with many of their positions but its still a fairly decent publication. I’ve noticed several occasions when other news outlets have tried to manipulate news stories that Mother Jones didn’t. If you’re going to get your news from a liberal source then get it from them. I don’t like to resort to naked insults but Truth pretty much nailed it.
Haha well in retrospect, after looking at that very comprehensive MJ article, I must agree with you. But I will defend TYT a little bit – just because they’re on the internet, and specifically youtube, doesn’t mean they aren’t credible. I trust them much more than Fox news, for example… Anyways, it is clear to me now that stand your ground doesn’t really apply here, so you were right on that. The MJ article also referenced voice-analysis that I was hoping for, and both analyses by two different methods supported that it was Trayvon Martin screaming for help. I ran through the recorded screams a bit myself, and it did sound more like a young teen (granted, my version of audio enhancement = volume way up, but still..). Thoughts?
Referencing the following: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_different_types_of_murder_charges
And hence the reason the current prosecutor is taking so long. At best, she brings a manslaughter charge; but even that won’t stick because the bruises prove themselves.
The left, especially the Blacks, will never admit to themselves that she really has no case.
Nothing George Zimmerman did was illegal or even abnormal, up to the interaction.
And, even if we were to believe the fact that George Zimmerman was Mr. Evil there is no way to prove it.
Adam
This case has seen a lot of claims made (on both sides) that have since been disproven or at least called into question. For example, people were claiming TM was 140 and GZ was 240. But it turns out TM was 160 and GZ is 170. There have been so many bogus claims that at this point I’m skeptical of anything not backed by hard evidence.
In this case, two eyewitnesses have said it was GZ’s voice. Normally, I’d give more weight to the technicians than eyewitnesses. But those same witnesses also saw TM on top beating GZ. And GZ has injuries to prove it. That’s a serious contradiction. Why would the guy on top be screaming?
The techs saying it wasn’t GZ’s voice is a far cry from saying it was TM’s. That may sound odd but the voice being analyzed was recorded over the telephone from someone yelling in the yard outside. So the samples being compared are less than ideal. It could well be GZ’s but the quality just too poor to match.
Hopefully, we’ll get some more input from other techs. If others show up to support their results I’ll probably accept it. But if other techs dispute it then I’ll have to put a question mark by it and rely on other evidence. Also, one of the techs now claiming it was TM had previously listed his reasons for questioning the results of any voice analysis. Here’s the article if you’re interested.
http://mashable.com/2012/03/26/voice-recognition-trayvon-martin/
The voice is definitely a key piece of evidence. But, ultimately, the deciding factor is not who screamed but who was attacked. And given GZ’s injuries, its going to be hard for a prosecutor to prove GZ wasn’t attacked regardless of who screamed.
The story has been reported in the most irresponsible ways imaginable. The outright manipulation of events and facts is such that I cannot believe there won’t be lawsuits as a result. Do I have to consider how the press will spin it as a person who is not Black in a position to use deadly force in response to an attack I perceive as life-threatening by a Black person? Should I just hope that I’m wrong and don’t end up dead,”just” brain damaged and not shoot? In the seconds I would have to make decisions about my actions do I have to consider that my life, even if I get to keep it, will become public fodder and I will be publicly lynched as a result? Do I have to think about the safety of my family and friends moving forward? Do I have to consider that even if others feel I am innocent until proven guilty the screams of “racist” will be such they will be silenced? Is allowing oneself to be killed or so seriously injured death isn’t a bad alternative, not preferable to what may come after?
At the end of the day,what’s the take-away here? Do I just shoot myself in that situation?
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[destructure: Exactly. Whether GZ is guilty or innocent is a matter for the courts. Of course, people respond by saying he should have been arrested and tried. No, he shouldn't. Not unless there is probable cause to show he didn't act in self defense. Otherwise, the courts are being used to punish people for acting in their own defense. This case has taken on a racial context. But you'll notice I've deliberately steered clear of the racial aspect. That's because the real issue is one's right to self-defense. You're the first person I've seen who really gets that.]
From what I have seen from Drudge and other sites:
Witness intimidation: ABC released the name of a 13 year old witness. Why?
NBC selectively edits the 911 call to make GZ look ‘Racist’ (ie: NBC admits this happened).
It looks like ABC doctored a photo of GZ to make him look White instead of Hispanic.
ABC doctors a video of GZ at the police station, hiding his injuries (nice banner placement covering over his head).
The curtain has been pulled back and the wizard manipulator(s) have been exposed. I am in awe and absolutely disgusted at the same time.
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[destructure: Yes. But polls still show 73% think GZ should be arrested.]
“But I will defend TYT a little bit – just because they’re on the internet, and specifically youtube, doesn’t mean they aren’t credible.”
That’s not what I said.
As a matter of fact, there are MANY credible voices on the internet and YouTube, of all political stripes. The Young Turks, however, are not among them.
I tried watching them, their most obvious feature is their lack of critical thinking.
And for the record, one of them had a brief stint on MSNBC, and was so godawful, that he was ultimately dismissed.
Since everyone’s Trayvon now, someone’s got to be George.
The cops were called to this gated community a little over 400 times in the last 13 months prior. There were robberies and other crimes where the reported suspects were young Black males. Do you take that information and purposely not approach/report young Black males that are not known to you in your gated community rather than be called a racist? Or accused of racial profiling? I want to know what the expectations are. I want the powers that be to stop pussy-footing around this and come out with it already.
I’m actually confused by it all. I don’t know what we’re talking about anymore. Racism? Hoodies? Skittles? What’s a “White Hispanic?” ( Is there a test? Is there a cure? ) Stalking? Gun laws? Nepotism? The perceived authority of 911 dispatchers? Sanford? District Attorneys? Marijuana? President Obama? Bounty Hunters? Threatening the elderly? Its crazy.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87688384/Zimmerman-family-member-letter-to-NAACP
The link speaks for itself.
“(how far away he was and why the semi-automatic gun only shot one bullet – held onto by Trayvon or simply malfunctioned)”
I’ve read on the internets that the gun did not chamber the next round and a struggle over the gun could have caused that.
“What’s a “White Hispanic?””
A spanish descended european. Zimmerman clearly is not, and the media was just trying to hammer him into their pre-existing racial narrative and story.
Destructure,
This is an excellent and clearly structured resource. It’s very helpful, thank you.
An item that might interest you is this video of Zimmerman’s former attorney, Harold Uhrig briefly summarising the case for the defence:
Here is a site purportedly put up by Zimmerman his self appealing for donations:
http://therealgeorgezimmerman.com/Home_Page.php
I’m not sure how to verify the legitimacy of the site but I’d be willing to donate if I was certain the money was actually going to Zimmerman.
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[destructure: Zimmerman attorney says defense fund website is real]
Wow, charged with murder 2.
Let’s see if what you wrote here bears out.
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[destructure: Corey bypassed the grand jury which is unusual and charged him with murder 2 which will be hard to sell a jury. Most prosecutors would have charged him with manslaughter because its easier to convict. She's either going for a home-run or knows she hasn't got a case. I stand by my prediction that they're fast-tracking and punting. They're leaving it up to unelected jurors in order to avoid the political consequences. Unless there's some surprising evidence my money is still on acquittal. Time will tell.]
Question: Is Zimmerman senior Gearge Zimmerman’s stepfather or biological father? I had heard stepfather, but that would erode the MSM’s narrative of a “white hispanic”.
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[destructure: Robert Zimmerman Sr adopted George Zimmerman. But I don't know whether he adopted his wife's biological son or whether they both adopted GZ through an agency.]
“Unless there’s some surprising evidence my money is still on acquittal. Time will tell.]”
I haven’t been following the case as closely as many are. But my impression and hunch, which i heard echoed by several pundits is, the D.A. went for murder-2 with the stipulation in the charge that the jury may opt-down to a manslaughter charge if they feel there’s not quite enough for m-2.
I’m really not sure of the details, but if that’s the case, it sounds to me like a tactic to hard-sell a manslaughter conviction, dontcha think?
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[destructure: I didn't realize the affidavit contained a 'lesser included offense' until after I wrote that comment. You're right that it could be a tactic. Studies show customers are more likely to buy product "A" for $50 when given a choice between product "A" and a more expensive product "B" than when they are only offered product "A". But from what I've seen of the affidavit, the prosecution still doesn't have probable cause. Alan Dershowitz even called the Zimmerman arrest affidavit "Irresponsible And Unethical". If the prosecutor isn't careful she's going to wander into Nifong territory.]
“If the prosecutor isn’t careful she’s going to wander into Nifong territory.]”
I agree that this instance may be theoretically akin to the Nifong folllies—— but I think the huge difference here that will protect the prosecution from that possibility (however just it may ultimately turn out to be) is the fact that Martin died and was unarmed and that Zimmerman was armed and used his weapon to kill Martin.
As you say, he may still be the victim in this circumstance, but those key ingredients will make it much easier to convict him, however unjust that fact might ultimately be.
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[destructure: GZ's prosecutor could still end up with contempt of court and ethics violations even if GZ is guilty as sin. It's not about the guilt of the defendant. It's about how the prosecutor conducts herself. The prosecutor hasn't crossed the line yet. She's just being very sloppy which makes me wonder if she will.]
I played it only once, but my gloss interpretation of the vid featuring Dershowitz is that he’s saying: there’s nothing in the indictment that comes close to validating a Murder 2 charge, which Smercornian (sp?) seems to agree with, even though he’s among the talking heads who feign objectivity with each and every new ‘development’ and are in other ways milking the hype from all this.
If so, and the D.A. knows her evidence is thin, that would lead me to believe that much more she’s throwing the Murder-2 charge in there as the second-to-last destination to her goal of having sheep jurors present her with a manslaughter conviction.
I don’t see prosecutor getting a contempt-of-court charges; if so, it would be based solely on literal deeds and theoretical consideration and would have to go entirely against the presiding p.c.-pop polemic that’s ruled so far.
I don’t see that happening, do you?
Furthermore,, does’nt’ this look like she’s covering the bases with nothing less than this entire media circus and spectacle in mind? I mean, she’s throwing the p.c. lynch-mobs some meat with the M-2 charge, but possibly knows it won’t stick, so she’s got a lighter charge that will probably prevail in some form, which will prevent this incident from becoming the 21-st century Emmett Till Show, etc.; she may even believe theoretically that Zimmerman deserves a manslaughter charge, though her most genuine thought re. that probably is ‘WTF cares?’
I don’t see that happening, do you?
I wasn’t saying she would get a contempt charge for the affidavit. I said she was being sloppy and if she isn’t careful she’s going to end up with one.
I mean, she’s throwing the p.c. lynch-mobs some meat with the M-2 charge, but possibly knows it won’t stick, so she’s got a lighter charge that will probably prevail in some form,
No doubt.
which will prevent this incident from becoming the 21-st century Emmett Till Show
This will end up just like OJ, Duke Lacrosse, Anthony Casey, etc. Some were guilty and some weren’t. But none were convicted.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FuC9mibLl
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